Listen to the Podcast Episode Here
https://www.manmeatbbq.com/mmb-blog/2015/6/30/mmb-ep27-chat-with-brian-demuro

Back in the day at Highland High School, Brian DeMuro and I (Peter A. DeLuca, aka AKAPAD) were classmates navigating teenage life in New Jersey. Fast-forward a bit, and I had the chance to design a custom MMA website for Brian to showcase and promote his mixed martial arts fights during his early fighting days—helping put his Tapology and Sherdog profiles front and center.

Years later, Brian’s journey took him from Food Network’s Sweet Genius winner and acclaimed pastry chef to becoming a true pitmaster. In this classic 2015 episode of the Man Meat BBQ Podcast, he sits down with host Mikey to share his transition story, smoker modifications (reverse-flow hacks and silicone seals for max smoke), straight-oak smoking secrets, low-and-slow brisket tips, smoked mac & cheese recipes loaded with gourmet cheeses, and why ribs just don’t do it for him.

Check out the full transcript below—it’s a fun, no-holds-barred chat blending culinary expertise with backyard BBQ passion!

What’s up guys, it’s Mikey with Man Made Barbecue and we are bringing you another awesome episode of our fucking podcast, and if you don’t like it, don’t listen to it. This next guest, or our guest today, needs very, very little introduction. He’s been on the Food Network, he is a master pastry chef, but he is turning barbecuer, which is awesome.

It’s just something that he wants to master in his life and that’s the next step in his culinary journey, which I think is super rad, fucking awesome. So, without further ado, let’s get into our chat. What’s up guys, it is Mikey.

I am chatting with Brian today. Brian, tell us a little bit about yourself, just so the listeners can know. Well, I started out as a pastry chef, I’m from New Jersey, worked in some of the best restaurants in Philly, South Jersey, I was actually named one of the top 13 pastry chefs in Philadelphia by Zagit, and I’m also a winner of Food Network’s Sweet Genius series.

Now I’m transferring my way into barbecue. So now, you’re coming from the land of the sweets, as I’ll call it. Now what brought you into barbecue? That’s one of the main foods that I love to eat and never get sick of.

I’m from New Jersey, but man, I should have been born in the South, because I love Southern food and I love barbecuing. It’s one of my main things I love to do. It was also something that I was never allowed to do when I was younger, because my dad was a real control freak with the grill and would never let me anywhere near it.

So he’d always stand about 10 feet away and try to watch, and then he’d send me back into the house. So once I was able to actually do it on my own, this was the first thing I started doing, man. I got a real taste for barbecue, and I said, you know what? There’s not a lot of barbecue places around my area that are any good, and I want to take my chef skills that I’ve learned and transform to barbecue, man.

I’m coming out with some pretty good stuff here. That’s awesome. Now what are you cooking on? I’m cooking on a reverse-flow smoker.

Starting out slowly here, I’m just getting my business off the ground. So I’m starting slow. I got a smoker from Home Depot that I did some modifications on.

I actually ran one smoke on it straight up and really didn’t like the actual smoke ring that I was getting. I didn’t like the flavor that I was getting out of it. So I made a few adjustments to the smoker modifications, and it made a huge, huge difference.

Now, obviously, everyone’s probably dying to know, what are those modifications? Well, for one thing, my smoker was made to be used as a grill and a smoker, so it had grates on the bottom. I removed the grates and replaced it with steel plates. Also, there’s no baffle system from my heat box to my cook box, so there’s no way to control the heat.

So I had to put some steel plates up there to kind of be able to control how much heat is going into my cook box. Okay. I did that, and I did some silicone sealing around the firebox to keep the heat in, keep the smoke in.

And just a little bit around the edge of the actual lid of the cook box so that there’s no smoke leakage. So I’m getting 100% smoke into my meat now, instead of, I was losing a good bit when I first started on it without the silicone. Now, were you, when you obviously made sure the firebox is all solid and nice like that, now, did you have to do any sealing to the door of that smoker? Yeah, to the actual, to the lid of the cook box, yeah, I had to seal all around the edges of that because whenever I would open it, put my food back in, and put it back down, I noticed that there was still some, not much, it wasn’t building out, but I’m greedy.

I don’t want to lose any of it. So I sealed it off so that nothing was leaking out. Absolutely.

Absolutely. You don’t want to lose any of that precious smoke. Wow, that’s what your flavor is, that’s what you’re shooting for.

That’s exactly what you’re shooting for. Now what kind of flavor are you playing with? What kind of woods are you putting in there? I’m smoking on straight oak. Straight oak, huh? No fruit wood, nothing? Straight oak.

Nothing. Straight up oak. Very cool.

See, I’m still dabbling with putting some fruit wood in there and enjoying some of that stuff. Yeah, my first two or three runs, I played around, I did some hickory, I did some apple and some cherry and some pecan combinations, I just, it wasn’t for me, man. I like the good taste that you get just from straight oak.

Now is it just a regular oak or is it like a post oak? Nah, it’s just a regular oak, man. Perfect, dude, perfect. It was split a year ago and it was good to go.

Nicely aged, that’s perfect. Now you said that your dad kind of was controlling with the grill, with the barbecue and all that. Now was he into doing low and slow smoking or was it kind of, is it kind of like your traditional barbecue? Nah, he was… Or not traditional barbecue, sorry.

He was always just traditional barbecue. Yeah, he was always just a grill guy. He never did any smoking.

But I like, you know, I love grilled meats, I love smoked meats, it’s one of the things I like to do. I hate the cold. I’m not a cold weather person.

Why do you live in Jersey? So to get out in the heat, dude, I’m moving south in a couple weeks, don’t worry. I’ve been asking myself why I live in Jersey for 36 years now. I say the exact same thing that you do, I go, I hate the cold, oh my God, I’m so over it.

And then everyone goes, well, why the fuck do you live in Chicago? And I go… What the hell? You’re talking to me about Jersey and you’re in a fucking windy city, dude. Oh no, I am totally in the same boat as you are, I am totally in the same boat. Yeah, I think you got it a little worse there, homie.

I think we do sometimes, we really do. Yeah, I’m not a fan of the cold, so when it’s 90 degrees out, man, I love that. I will put a chair right out back, right in front of my smoker and sit out there all day long and just bake and smoke, I love it.

Ooh, that sounds nice. Now, what are some of your favorite things to cook? Smoked pork, man, I love me some pork butt. Some pork butt, awesome.

Absolutely, absolutely, I’m a pork man, so I like my pulled pork and my brisket. Those are my two that I absolutely love to cook and I love to eat. I’m not a huge fan of ribs.

You’re not a huge fan of ribs, why is that? I’m not a huge fan of ribs because honestly, if you put three racks in front of me, I’m going to eat them and look up at you and be like, okay, when do we eat? It just does nothing for me. Even if they’re like good meaty spare ribs? If you could give me a damn side of brontosaurus ribs, I don’t give a shit, it ain’t going to do nothing for me. Now, are you opposed to beef ribs? I’m not opposed to them.

I honestly have never cooked them and wouldn’t even know where the hell to start. I would actually honestly treat them, I’d probably treat them like a brisket and cut the time in half, that’s the only adjustment I would do for that. Realistically, that’s exactly how I treat them.

I like to call them my brisket on a stick. That’s all it is, there you go. I’m actually going to steal that.

It’s a brisket on a stick, it really is. Cooking it is very similar to cooking brisket. Obviously, you’re not cooking it for 20 hours depending on the size of your brisket.

It’s very similar. I do like the taste of a good beef rib. I love me some good brisket, man.

It’s got to be a good brisket though. Again, in this area, it’s really hard to find. I was going to ask you, that was going to be my next question.

How is finding brisket up there? Well, you can find brisket just about anywhere. Finding good brisket, on the other hand, that’s a whole other ballgame. That would be the next question.

What kind of brisket are you guys getting? Are you guys getting just the regular, run-of-the-mill brisket? I can’t describe some of the shit that I’ve come across. I really can’t. I’ve had brisket that straight up just crumbled on me.

I’ve had brisket I couldn’t chew. I’ve run into some real shithole places, man. It’s actually kind of depressing.

That’s why I went out and put my own smoker in. That’s usually part of the reason some people get into smoked meat. They want it and they can’t find good places to eat meat.

Everybody that knows me knows how particular I am with my food. I don’t eat fast food. I don’t eat crap.

I just don’t do it. You can call me a snobby chef all you want. I really don’t give a shit.

I’m not sitting here eating caviar, for God’s sakes. But if I want a steak, damn it, I want a good steak. I don’t want a London broil from the diner.

I want good food. I want good food. I know I’m a chef.

I know what I can do with anything else. So I figured, what the hell, let me try barbecue. And I did and it’s going good so far, man.

Yeah, why not? So what made you become a pastry chef in the beginning? I baked my first batch of brownies when I was six years old with no Easy-Bake Oven. So you didn’t use the light bulb? No, I didn’t use an Easy-Bake Oven. I actually grabbed a chair, put it up to the counter and stood on the chair and did everything on the counter like that.

My mom came in the kitchen and was like, what the hell is going on in here? You’re like, I’m making brownies. I turned around, I was exactly like that. I’m making brownies.

With my little Minnie Mouse voice. And she’s like, oh my goodness. Yeah, it’s been pretty much like that ever since.

I’ve always baked. I’ve always cooked. Not on a crazy, obsessive level.

But once in a while, I’d step in the kitchen, grab something. And then one day I just decided, screw this, I’m going to go to culinary school. And it was actually a twist of fate at the time.

My school, the way their program was set up, their culinary program, you had to take general education classes. Because you’re getting a bachelor’s, you’re getting an associate degree. Yeah, absolutely.

I had signed up for that because they did not have a baking and pastry program at the time I signed up for school. When I first started going to the school is when they initiated the program. Now, the way they ran their class structure, every class was four hours.

No matter if it was a culinary lab or if it was English. And I am sorry, I cannot sit there and listen to Shakespeare for four hours and then put a knife in my hand. It’s not safe for anyone.

I believe that. I’m like, I mean, I can’t do this. I got to get the hell out of here.

So I went and talked to the dean, begged and pleaded to change my major to baking and pastry because it was a certificate program. I didn’t have to take any of the general election classes. All I did was baking labs.

So I graduated at the top of my class. And I was actually a member of the first baking and pastry class that they had at my school. And I’m one of two people that are still in the industry out of 35 students.

Yeah, isn’t it funny how that works? It’s crazy, man. I don’t know how you spend 30 some thousand dollars and then go work something else. What the hell did you spend that money for? Sometimes people just need a reason to get into something.

You know what I mean? That’s a $30,000 reason, man. Yeah, they don’t look at the price. They don’t look at the price tag.

They’re just like, well, this sounds like fun. And then they get into it. Let me tell you something.

If I knew then what I know now, I’d be damned if I would have ever stepped foot in a culinary school. Now, why do you say that out of curiosity? Because I learned more in my first two weeks on the job training than I learned in my first two months at school. And there’s just shit that’s in the industry that they don’t prepare you for in school.

Like what? Well, when you first sign up, they don’t sit there and tell you that you’re going to be working 12, 14 hour days, 6, 7 days a week. You ain’t ever going to see your family. You ain’t ever going to be home for a holiday.

You know, forget Friday, Saturday nights, going out with your buddies. That shit ain’t ever happening. They don’t let you in on that because I bet you if they give you a lot of the dark edges of being a chef, you see a lot of people run for the hills out of admissions.

That is true. They don’t tell you everything. They don’t tell you shit.

They just take your money. Yeah, but I feel like a lot of places or a lot of professions are like that. They don’t give you the full rundown.

You know what I mean? They kind of just, for better sake, they kind of just tell you like, hey, this is going to make you money. This is going to be the best decision you’ve ever made. And then you realize that cooking isn’t, I have a lot of friends that are actually chefs that are in the kitchen.

It’s not as glamorous as everyone thinks it is. No, and the Food Network really, really is painting a very poor picture for up-and-coming chefs because that’s what they’re portraying. They’re portraying chef life.

As you know, we’re under the spotlight. We’re all in Hollywood and living glamorous lives. It’s like, no.

Boy, what you don’t know is hidden behind that door, number one. Absolutely. I totally agree with you on that.

That’s kind of, it’s kind of in that weird realm where they’re painting a weird little picture and they’re making everyone want to be that. And I do believe it was Elton Brown that was talking on his podcast and he was saying that there’s too many chefs, too many new-coming chefs. If you’re an older chef, I’m not talking about you guys right now.

Don’t get offended. But there’s too many people coming out of culinary school and printing out business cards that say, chef this. Yeah, and that drives me freaking insane.

You don’t even know how to make a hollandaise correctly and you’re calling yourself a chef? Come on, man. Just because you could take a recipe from this book, a recipe from another book, and a recipe from another book and combine it into a meal, that does not make you a chef. That makes you a freaking puzzle put together.

I don’t even know how the hell you would say that. It makes you a good line cook. I wouldn’t even, you know, I would even question that much.

I mean, it’s another thing with culinary school, too. There’s another reason why, if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn’t have gone. I’ve seen some students that have graduated from some top restaurant schools around here that can’t poach an egg to save their fucking life.

That’s horrible. I mean, I did not go to culinary school, but I can definitely poach an egg. You got one up on some of the people I’ve worked with, man.

And that’s why some people will talk to me. I’ve talked to a couple people and they’re like, oh, you’re a chef, and I’m like, I am not. I am a barbecue enthusiast.

Can I cook? Yeah, I believe I can cook. And I believe I can cook good barbecue. I don’t know if that necessarily entitles me to become a chef.

I would say that would entitle you a pit master, if anything. A chef is somebody who has ran a line. He’s ran a brigade.

He’s run a restaurant. Just because you can cook a few meals out of your house to your friends that are going to say whatever the hell you want to hear, that doesn’t make you a chef. Of course, and I’m slowly starting.

I’m dibbling, dabbling, and catering. I’m starting to do other parties and talking to people. And people have asked me, they’re like, would you cater my party? Would you cook for it? And I’m slowly starting to do that.

And I’m having some pretty good results with people that are saying the food is good that are actually paying for it. And I feel like that’s where that line starts to get blurry. Exactly.

Exactly. Anybody that, you know, you have your friends over for a few meals, of course they’re going to rave about it. Yeah, it’s free food.

It’s free. I ain’t never heard anybody complain about free shit before in my life. You can hand them out some Oscar Mayer wieners wrapped in some damn white bread called a pig in a blanket and they’ll think it’s a five-star meal because it’s free.

Charge them for that shit and see how much complaint you get. Well, you know, it was a little bit soggy and… Exactly. You know, your hot dog end wasn’t really crisp and the middle seems raw.

It’s like, man, shut the fuck up and it’s true. It’s true. I believe that once you start charging for your food, it starts to change the game.

It’s just really, I think it’s that tipping point where if you’re able to charge for your food, it’s a little bit different. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Because people want the best bang for their buck, but they also want to have a good experience. So if your food sucks and they’re paying for it, I would bitch. Yeah, everyone would.

Now, what are some of your favorite things, obviously, like, favorite things to cook? You said pork, brisket. Are you doing anything else with cooking on The Smoker? Are you experimenting with any of your culinary background? You know, trying to do some gourmet stuff or anything like that? Actually, now that you mention it, I’m going to be getting some cheeses in this week. I want to smoke some cheeses because I’m actually right now trying to get on Beat Bobby Flay for my macaroni and cheese.

So if I could take these cheeses and smoke them and then make my mac and cheese, I think that would come out really damn good. See, I do make a smoked mac and cheese. So what my… Do you smoke your cheeses prior or do you make your mac and then put your mac in The Smoker? I make my mac and then I put it in The Smoker.

So I kind of, almost kind of like a baked mac and cheese. Kind of the same. I do the kind of same idea where I put it, you know, I make my mac and cheese.

I put it inside The Smoker. I let it really get that nice brown top. Like basically like a baked mac and cheese would get.

But it infuses that smoke flavor really nicely. Well, it sounds good. And then what I do to cheat a little bit is I take extra crunchy Cheez-Its and I crumple them up and I just take that and I drizzle it on the top right afterwards right as it comes off just so it has a crunch.

It’s kind of like you’re… I use panko breadcrumbs, toasted panko breadcrumbs on top of mine. So that’s kind of what you’re doing. You’re giving kind of like a crunchy topping for it.

Exactly. That’s all I’m going for is just that nice crunch. That’s good.

That’s another layer of texture that you’re putting in. That’s great. See, I learned something from the Food Network.

I tend to put a lot of focus… I put as much focus on my sides as I do my meats. That’s one of the things that drives me nuts about barbecue places in general. Even when I went down south, I’ve come across places where the meats were some of the best meats that I’ve ever had but then their mac and cheese sucked.

I’m a mac and cheese fanatic. I’ll eat that shit three times a day, seven days a week, 365 days a week. I’m a firm believer in that noodle cannot be overcooked for mac and cheese.

I love mac and cheese. The one thing I can’t stand is when somebody puts mac and cheese in front of me that is hardly any cheese. It’s all congealed and just a big drop of something that looks like it’s glued together.

I freaking hate that. I want my mac and cheese to be cheesy and delicious. When you take a forkful out of it and try to bring it to your mouth, you got this whole ring of cheese attached to the fork still like you’re pulling on some pizza or something.

I am using white cheddar, sharp cheddar, smoked Gouda, Gruyere, and Swiss. I don’t play around with it. No, that’s a good mixture.

I don’t play around. My yellow cheese, my extra sharp yellow cheese is what I make my cheese sauce with. When I go to fold in my macaroni into the cheese sauce, I’ll throw in the shredded cheese as well and mix everything up.

I never bake mine. All my mac and cheese is done on the stove top. Never bake it.

I particularly don’t like baked mac and cheese because you never have that creaminess to it. It’s always congealed. It’s like eating freaking glue to me.

Maybe you won’t like my smoked mac and cheese. I’ll try it. I’ll try anything.

If you want my opinion, boy, I’ll tell you. I’ll give it to you straight up. I don’t sugarcoat nothing but my pastries.

No, that’s perfect. Now, my other quick question. What are some other sides that you like to put on there? Collard greens.

We’re talking mac and cheese? I like doing collard greens with the ham hocks. I’ll put that on the smoker once in a while. Smoked collard greens is one of the best things I’ve ever had.

It’s not something that you come across every day. I’ve actually never heard smoked collard greens. I’ve heard of them cooked but never smoked.

You’ve got to come check me out for that then. What’s the process on that? Do you do any preparation? I’ll take some of your smoked mac and you take some of my smoked collards. How’s that? Perfect.

Meet me in South Carolina because I ain’t coming to friggin’ Chicago. It’s too cold. Do you do any prep work in the kitchen with that or does that just go straight on the smoker? It’s just finished on the smoker just to infuse some of the smoked flavor.

What I’ll do, first I make a pork stock and I use that to cook the collards in the pot. When I’m doing the pork stock, I have ham hocks in there. That’s what I use to make my pork stock.

So when I go to drain out my stock, I have my ham hocks in there. I pull that meat and that goes in with my collards. And then I use my pork stock to cook it down with just a little bit of salt and pepper.

Once they’re done, I put them in a nice pan, put them on the smoker for a half hour, give them a good stir, another half hour, they’re out. Awesome. That sounds perfect.

That sounds perfect to me at least. Now, so we’re doing greens, anything else you doing? You doing any other type of greens? Anything else? No, nothing. Not on the smoker anyway.

Okay. And what temp are you smoking at? What’s your kind of go-to temp? I usually run about 250, 275 for my pork butt. Okay.

My brisket’s at 225. It does not go any higher than 230. Okay.

What’s your… See, normally I run my brisket a little hotter than I run my… than I run my pork butt. I run my pork butt about 225, 250, and then I run my brisket 250, 275. Interesting.

I reverse it. Is it… Do you have a theory behind it? Any… Yeah. Low and… You want that brisket low and slow.

Low and slow is your friend, my man. Low and slow. Especially on a brisket.

You’re going to infuse a lot of flavor. You’re going to get a good, good smoke ring. Watch… I guarantee you, you lower your temperature on your smoker on one brisket, and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

Okay. Now, how long… You’ll retain… You’ll retain the moisture a lot better. How long are you running that brisket for? It depends on how many pounds.

Usually probably about an hour a pound. You’re doing… Okay. That’s what I was going to ask you.

If you had kind of like a ball game. I know with my pork butt, I do about an hour and a half per pound. That’s kind of how I schedule it.

I usually don’t go by length. I put a probe thermometer in mine. I set the alarm on it.

When it hits, it hits. Yeah, man. I’ve had pork… Totally.

I’ve had… I’ve had 20-pound pork butts that have gone for five and a half hours at the same temp that I run all the time. I’ve had them go for seven and a half hours. Yeah.

I always say they’re done when they’re done. You can’t rush good barbecue. No, absolutely not.

That’s the mistake a lot of people make. I think it’s a big mistake. I also feel that some barbecue restaurants that never run out of food is a big mistake.

It’s something that I’m not quite sure how they do. How they do that. There’s actually a place up here that does that.

I kind of caught on to why. It’s because they’re not even doing anything there. They’re bringing all their stuff in from Arkansas.

Okay. All their stuff is coming in from Arkansas. It’s getting shipped.

It’s getting heated. I was going to say, what is it, frozen? It’s not frozen. I won’t give them that much.

It’s not frozen. It’s vacuum sealed and shipped out to all the locations. I know our location is not frozen because I’ve seen it come in on the truck.

That’s interesting. I can’t speak on where it’s going to any other locations and I’m not going to put the restaurant’s name out there like that because they didn’t pay me to advertise. No need to.

That’s no need to at all. I feel if you don’t run out of food that’s an issue. It is.

It’s an issue to me because for me I feel like it should be prepped that day and hot and ready for me. I don’t feel I enjoy the places that are like, listen, if you’re not here early you’re not getting good barbecue and it’s like, okay, that’s fine. Then I’m not going to go there that day if I don’t want to come for certain things.

It just, it scares me when it’s like, oh, yeah, we have brisket all day long or yeah, we have ribs all day long. Well, how many damn ribs do you have back there? How many ribs did you make? Exactly. When I can go into a barbecue restaurant that’s still open at 8 o’clock at night and get a brisket with pulled pork I walk right the hell out.

It’s a little bit nerve-wracking. Yeah. I mean, that’s another reason why I’m not too crazy about the barbecue restaurants around here because they don’t run out of food and they’re open late.

And them smokers are not running during that whole time. And I had a conversation. I believe it was one of the past podcasts that we were just chatting about.

We were talking about it and it, you know, barbecue is not something that I can say, you know, hey, what do you want? Oh, you want the ribs? Okay, cool. Tell him it’s gonna be like five hours. I’m gonna throw another rack on for him.

Yeah. You know, it’s just not possible. It’s really not.

I don’t understand how some of these places get away with it. I mean, it, I don’t know because people don’t know good barbecue. Just like most people want ribs to fall cleanly off the bone, where they shouldn’t.

They should, there should be, there should be a little bit of a tug and there should be a nice bite. Actually, yeah. Exactly.

Because if they just completely fall off the bone, you’ve overcooked them. Yep. And most people, I’m gonna say it, the people who boil their ribs.

Horrible idea. They should be crucified. Horrible idea.

The only time you are ever boiling your ribs is after you’ve

PETER A DELUCA AKAPD

AKAPAD is a versatile thinker known across Philadelphia, Europe, and even in the vast Multiverse as The Electic One. By day, he excels as an IT Mastermind, assisting individuals, both big and small, with a wide range of simple and complex solutions. In contrast, he is also a talented illustrator, a passionate comic book enthusiast, a creative content creator, and an active live streamer. Additionally, his podcast, “AKAPAD The Film Buff Podcast,” boasts an impressive catalog of over 500 episodes available on nearly every major platform.